Watashi wa bara no sadame ni umareta... ([info]jetamors) wrote,
@ 2009-06-24 21:42:00
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Current mood:enraged
Entry tags:meta

Warnings!wank, and the post I didn't make about Racefail
If you don't know what I'm talking about, there's a general rundown here, or check out some of the recent posts on [info - community]metafandom. This is a bunch of stuff, and I don't even know how to organize this in a reasonable way, so I'll just throw everything under random numbers.


1) Squicks and triggers are not the same thing. Let me repeat that: squicks and triggers are not the same thing. I have plenty of squicks*. I do not have even a single trigger** that I am aware of. Most previous warnings discussions that I've seen have focused on squicks or dislikes. This one is not; it is focused on triggers.

2) Please consider banning the following people from your journal, based on statements reproduced here (many of which have since been deleted by their authors): [info]aukestrel, [info]cynatnite, [info]mara_snh. All of them have said further faily things in their own journals, btw, if you have the trainwreck syndrome to stand it. If you only ban one of those people, ban [info]aukestrel; I do not have words strong enough to condemn someone who tries to correct a survivor on her own abuse and her response to it.

3) [info - personal]zvi has said a lot of really insensitive, offensive, and privileged things in this wank (see most of her recent journal entries, including/especially this post, or look here for the Greatest Hits compilation), but one thing in particular that stuck out to me was this post, specifically where she says that only [info]latxcvi and [info - insanejournal.com]the_willow can talk to her about it. I don't know anything about [info]latxcvi, but [info - insanejournal.com]the_willow has been very clear about the fact that she is someone who suffers from PTSD and has been triggered by fic.

And--and please tell me if I'm being privileged and appropriative here, I'm extrapolating from a situation where I'm not privileged to a situation where I am, and there are all kinds of pitfalls in that--I see that and I think about how I've felt during the various and sundry Racefails. I'm black; race isn't an area where I'm privileged. And I had (and still have) no interest whatsoever in trying to educate someone who's (possibly maliciously) ignorant, or trying to argue about whether or not I "should" be finding something hurtful and offensive, or, even worse, whether I'm actually being hurt or not. (Because it's bad faith for me to say that you did something racist, but not bad faith for you to assume that I'm lying when I say that I'm hurt or offended.)

If someone, even (perhaps, especially) someone I knew well, had come to me during the Racefails and been all "Hey, [info - personal]jetamors, I don't want to listen to all these other people, you personally must hold my hand and explain to me why [offensively inconsiderate] thing is bad no matter how painful it is for you," I probably would've burst into tears. I can't even express how much that would have hurt. And to me that feels like what [info - personal]zvi is saying to [info - insanejournal.com]the_willow. (I should make it clear that I'm not trying to speak for [info - insanejournal.com]the_willow or determine her reactions; she's perfectly capable of doing so herself. I'm saying that due to the potential for great hurt, [info - insanejournal.com]the_willow shouldn't be placed in that position in the first place.)

I keep going back to two Racefail posts that should be read in tandem, IMHO. The first is Yelling Class, which is (among other things) about people learning how much their privilege hurt the unprivileged when they were confronted with that hurt in a way they couldn't ignore. And after you've read that post, read this one. The author says it better than I can: I. should. not. have. to fucking. cry. in. front. of. you. before. it. clicks. with. you. that. I. hurt. when. I told. you. I. hurt.

If someone says "I'm triggered by non-con, please warn in some way so that I can protect myself," the correct response to that is not "Nah, I'm not convinced that I should warn, you'll have to persuade me." The correct response, if you're a decent human being, is "Sure, I don't want to hurt you," and then you find a way to do so, either by warning for it, or making warnings available for people who want them, or slapping a boilerplate "I don't warn" onto everything so people who might be triggered can avoid your fic. (Or of course if you don't like the word "warn", you can use another word, so long as the information is there.) People keep going "omg slippery slope", but until that actually happens, they need to put the strawman away.

It honestly disgusts me that [info]impertinence felt that she had to make a post like that in order to be taken seriously. It disgusts me more that even after reading that post, and being confronted with that kind of pain, there are still people who don't think there's anything wrong with causing it.

_________
* Defining squick as: something I find gross or unsettling and will immediately back-button out of a fic where it is present. This usually leads to me being grossed out or vaguely sad/unsettled for anywhere between a few minutes or a few days, but it does not interfere with my daily life or my mental health.

** Defining trigger as: something that can give me a reaction anything like this (Warning: Very explicit discussion of sexual assault and the nature, anatomy, cause & effect of triggers. Is itself triggery.)




(11 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]a_white_rain
2009-06-25 03:31 am UTC (link)
I haven't really followed this in depth. Just commented here and there on my flist. I feel kind of awkward because while I don't have triggers like most people have been describing, I know exactly how painful having flashbacks can be. For me, it's just an unsettling feeling of being helpless and sometimes crying even though I'm not quite sure why (my history with sexual abuse is complex and not exactly the point) - I wouldn't want anyone to have to go through that.

And any argument on ~art~ is totally bull crap. A good story should still be good even if one knows what's going to happen.

Also: "Hey, [info - personal]jetamors, I don't want to listen to all these other people, you personally must hold my hand and explain to me why [offensively inconsiderate] thing is bad no matter how painful it is for you," I probably would've burst into tears.

I'm so sorry. I know that's not quite the point (or maybe it was) of this post - I'm just sorry that this kind of pain exists and that you've felt it in any matter.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]jetamors
2009-06-25 04:14 am UTC (link)
Just commented here and there on my flist. I feel kind of awkward because while I don't have triggers like most people have been describing, I know exactly how painful having flashbacks can be. For me, it's just an unsettling feeling of being helpless and sometimes crying even though I'm not quite sure why (my history with sexual abuse is complex and not exactly the point) - I wouldn't want anyone to have to go through that.

*hugs* I don't want you to go through it either--I don't want anyone to go through it, of course. One thing that has bothered me a bit is a few folks conflating people-who-are-triggered with people-who-are-survivors-of-sexual-abuse, which leads to people who are survivors but aren't triggered (or aren't triggered by fic) to feel excluded when they shouldn't be. This warning thing is specifically about not being a dick to people who are triggered, but your history and reactions aren't any less valid because you aren't triggered in certain ways.

I'm so sorry. I know that's not quite the point (or maybe it was) of this post - I'm just sorry that this kind of pain exists and that you've felt it in any matter.

You've definitely never done anything to cause it, so no worries :)

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[info]a_white_rain
2009-06-25 04:19 am UTC (link)
I'm glad I haven't read much - I'm not in a place right now where I feel like I could handle that. And man do I hate it when people question what I feel about things. That, in a sense, I can sort of understand. No one should have to justify the type of pain things like racism causes, and no one has a right to tell you how to feel, and no one should dismiss what you feel just because they can't or won't understand it.

I'm glad, and I hope that I'll continue to be.

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[info]a_white_rain
2009-06-25 04:21 am UTC (link)
This warning thing is specifically about not being a dick to people who are triggered, but your history and reactions aren't any less valid because you aren't triggered in certain ways.
Also, thank you.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]finnigan_geist
2009-06-25 03:57 am UTC (link)
This whole thing, I find, has been utterly appalling. I can't even begin to understand where the people who thing that putting a warning on their fanfiction in order to prevent this kind of pain is somehow inconveniencing them too much for their trouble. I just. I have nothing, and I start thinking they must be terrible people, and I don't want to make judgments like that, but seriously. I think they must, in some way, be terrible people. Lack empathy or something that compels most humans to react to their fellow human in a more understanding and compassionate way, because my God. Fanfiction is not that important or special, and I'd go so far as to say that nothing is so important or special that it can't be "artistically compromised" with such a tiny thing as to say "hey, the contents of this might really hurt some people." And even if it DID somehow "compromise" the ART (which, by the way, BULL. SHIT.), then THAT is WORTH THE FUCKING SACRIFICE, TOO.


I. seriously. It makes me angry and sad reading this just to know that there are people out there who put such a high premium on their own idiotic world view and what they think inconveniences them that they can no longer be decent human beings to each other. Jesus.

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[info]jetamors
2009-06-25 04:53 am UTC (link)
I start thinking they must be terrible people, and I don't want to make judgments like that, but seriously. I think they must, in some way, be terrible people. Lack empathy or something that compels most humans to react to their fellow human in a more understanding and compassionate way

I just think it's straight-up narcissism; not only do they want complete control over their own fic, they also want to silence people who criticize them for it. (Not necessarily all of the anti-warners, but definitely the three I mentioned in my post as ban-worthy.) I think what really brought that out the most was [info]trigger_fence. She took those people at their word (saying that people with triggers should protect themselves), and started making a list of people who don't warn, as a resource for people with triggers. And they went crazy when they saw their names on that list, trying to report her to LJ abuse, complaining that it was a blacklist, threatening to flock all their fic, etc. It's like not only do they want the ability not to warn (which they had anyway), they want to take away the ability of other people to warn.

I'd go so far as to say that nothing is so important or special that it can't be "artistically compromised" with such a tiny thing as to say "hey, the contents of this might really hurt some people."

Yeah, seriously. Every other form of media has ways of warning people when it's dealing with content that might disturb or trigger people; there is nothing about fanfiction that is so special and sacred that we shouldn't have that as well.

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[info]finnigan_geist
2009-06-25 02:54 pm UTC (link)
And I feel a little bit like my first comment there was a big word vomit of tired and angry, but I'm not sure I'd ever be able to really express myself better about it. I saw a bit of the people getting up in arms over [info]trigger_fence, and I really don't get it. I mean, if the people who don't warn really are behind their position of not warning 100%, then it's hardly a mark against them to be on that list, is it? Or are they that married to the idea that warnings are spoilers that ruin fun that they really would rather that people with triggers go ahead and get triggered than potentially spoil a plot point for other readers? I alsjdflajsd I don't even know and I'm not saying things properly even now so I'm gonna stop is probably the best idea.

Every other form of media has ways of warning people when it's dealing with content that might disturb or trigger people

And even if they didn't, you know, this is a case of people laying out exactly what triggers are and why they're hurtful and just how hurtful and traumatic they are, and asking simply for a warning. Even absent Imp's post, I can't understand how an author would be confronted with that request and say "No, because, you know, what's next, warning for untied shoelaces? I don't think so."

gahhhhhhhhhhhhhh

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[info]swatkat24
2009-06-25 04:44 am UTC (link)
Squick is finding something gross, or uncomfortable. Trigger is a painful physical reaction. I fail to understand how people DO NOT GET THAT. I fail to understand how people can speak of painful experiences with racism and then turn around and say 'OMG YOUR PAIN MEANS NOTHING TO ME GET OFF THE INTERNETS', I just can't. [info]impertinence's post was very, very hard to read (especially for someone who does not have triggers but appreciates the warnings so that she can stay away from explicit things), but I'm glad I did.

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[info]jetamors
2009-06-25 05:13 am UTC (link)
I can kind of understand the people who think this is a reiteration of the usual warnings wank that focuses on squicks and dislikes, but I seriously don't see how anyone who's read imp's post can carry right on as if we were talking about warning for people who dislike haircuts or het or something.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]emrinalexander
2009-06-28 11:09 pm UTC (link)
I thank you for this. I'm a survivor who has ended up spilling my guts on my on LJ about what happened to me, not because I'm an attention whore, or I am looking for cookies, but because people don't get it. ANd the line you quoted really hit home - no, damn it, neither you or I or anyone else should have to break down in sobbing heap of misery in order to justify the fact that when we said "this hurts" then goddamnit, it HURTS. Our word should be enough. The stuff I read on various posts made me so angry and sick I haven't even begun to process it all.

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[info]jetamors
2009-07-01 05:03 am UTC (link)
*hugs* I'm glad that you're able to talk about it (and really glad that no wankers showed up on your post), but at the same time, it's like you shouldn't have to, y'know? Especially not for something as relatively small and easy as fic labeling.

no, damn it, neither you or I or anyone else should have to break down in sobbing heap of misery in order to justify the fact that when we said "this hurts" then goddamnit, it HURTS. Our word should be enough.

[info]kuangning's post really made me think about a lot of things really differently: ways in which I've internalized the idea that I should be forced to justify myself in areas where I'm not privileged, and ways in which I don't extend initial good faith to non-privileged people in areas where I am privileged. I'm still kind of working through a lot of the implications.

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